In the current climate it feels to me like that blog would now have to take a completely different approach. I'm quite fond of using football analogies to link to real life and in this situation it's like where a manager says of his losing team "we need to get back to basics and start doing the simple things right". That's where it seems like we are now, especially in the virtual world of social media where real life events are scrutinised and blown up into huge events as they happen.
So in particular after the fallout from the Brexit vote in the UK and the election of Donald Trump as US president, it certainly seems like a lot of characters have come out of the woodwork to make positivity and "being nice" less about not being cool and more about being weak, just being plain wrong. It seems like it's the in thing to fight people who want to do the right thing and phrased like that the whole concept seems quite bizarre.
We now seem to live in a world where people who want to discriminate against specific groups of people tell those who don't want to discriminate against anyone that they're being intolerant, that they're ignoring or attacking anyone who has a different opinion to them, that they have no empathy with anyone who thinks differently.
Rewind time a little and think back to being at school. There were children who misbehaved and called other children names, there were those who bullied others and of course if they were found out they were punished. They were the ones discriminating against other children, more than likely through some kind of physical characteristic, trying to set them apart, trying to mark them out as different and exert some kind of power over them. This is my class, my school and you come into it on my terms.
Do we stop and allow those children to behave that way? Do we respect the fact that they just have a different opinion over how to act and let them get on with it? By disciplining them are we disrespecting their right to think and behave differently to well behaved children? Are we lacking empathy, should we take the time to understand why they need to, say, pick on the fat kid? The answer to all of those questions is a blindingly obvious "no". What we do is we punish them and set an example to all the other children that behaving like that is not acceptable. And hopefully they'll learn from it and not grow up to be an adult who makes the same mistakes.
- Nice Guys Finish Last -
But there is a certain allure to being the bad guy. The school bullies usually ended up having hangers-on who would look up to them and do some of their "work" for them. It's always been cool to like the bad boy rock stars, to see them cigarette in one hand, drink in another, attractive woman on their arm climbing into a limousine on the way to a flash hotel to throw a TV out of the window.
Today's bad guy is a bit different. Bad-guy-in-chief is one of the most powerful men in the world, if not THE most powerful, so if he says it's ok it must be ok right? We're talking about a businessman who is used to getting everything his own way and if he doesn't then he'll throw away the parts that are stopping him and replace them with new ones. For him being wrong is not an option, so he'll try and create a version of reality around himself where that never happens. Come to think of it, rather reminiscent of that school bully who grew up and didn't end up learning from his mistakes.
So if he makes comments that disrespect women, then in a lot of eyes it becomes ok to disrespect women. Harmless locker room talk. If he wants to launch an attack on immigrants arriving in America through Mexico, then it's now ok to have a problem with those people. If he wants to launch a similar attack on Muslims and try and prevent them coming into the country, then it's now ok to have a problem with Muslims too. If he wants to launch an attack on black American footballers for kneeling during the national anthem then his supporters will also back him. As he switches targets at the drop of a hat, those ideas will stick and take root with people.
Now in some quarters they'll have already been with him without the power of suggestion, there are still plenty of pockets in America where views like that are commonplace. To see the president echoing those views makes them feel vindicated. After keeping quiet for so long, it's now ok to come out in public and say that immigrants are a plague, Muslims only want to blow up good patriotic Americans, black people should go back to being second class citizens at best. Before anyone flies through the roof, yes I know the president hasn't actually said any of that as I did there, but if they are your views already then you can take what he HAS said and extrapolate as vindication of your opinions. He's "one of us". And so far he hasn't spoken out against any of those ideas with anything remotely approaching sincerity to prove that he isn't.
- Recalibrate the Zero? -
As our TV screens and the media increasingly feed us presidential updates and the like, the extreme views then become a little more common, what was extreme is now a little less so, what was deeply unpleasant becomes "just" unpleasant, what was unpleasant becomes almost acceptable. And this is a really important point, because this is how "the norm" becomes skewed - when you have the president of the USA making things that were previously socially unacceptable sound acceptable and regular airtime is being given to UK politicians to also communicate these views. The fact that they have a regular platform is bad enough, what is even more scary is that it hasn't really taken much to unlock this type of feeling in a lot of people. The school bullies are back recruiting their henchmen and that allure is working again.
This shift in what is seen as acceptable and what isn't is pushed down through the foot soldiers, you see them hiding on the internet behind their Youtube channel or spouting forth from the safety of their newspaper column, preaching hate and encouraging division. If you're unclear as to who I mean then the higher profile culprits are the likes of Paul Joseph Watson, Katie Hopkins, Tommy Robinson. All have an agenda to push and the methods involved vary from the blunt, discriminatory scaremongering to the more manipulative attempts at discrediting people who oppose them to somehow imply that then makes their way of thinking right. "Aha, I have found an apple with a maggot inside, therefore that proves my point that oranges are best!". Sadly it seems to work on some people. The chance to get one over on anyone who simply just wants people to be fair seems to be too much to resist, like it's a bad thing.
They'll find a real life point of reference to latch onto to try and pull you in, immigration being a particular favourite because, again, sadly it does actually seem to work pretty well for them. Taking a lower-level suspicion that people may have and feeding it until it grows and grows into something to be afraid of. Maybe Yoda was onto something with "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering". It might seem an odd quote to insert here, but joking I am not. Although I must admit it's strange that even when the most legitimate ends of the immigration argument are rolled out to say that we simply can't cope with the numbers, there's an underlying element which still manages to focus on one specific group of people, which to me points towards other, less number-based agendas.
To illustrate that, if you do want to reduce numbers then who do you prevent from entering the country? I'm guessing the first word on a lot of people's lips would end up being Muslims. Primarily because they've read headlines in the likes of The Sun, The Daily Mail and The Express or heard people like Nigel Farage or Donald Trump telling us that we should be afraid. Stoking the flames so we think they're all out to get us, whether that be taking our jobs, replacing our culture, raping our women or bombing us all to oblivion. If you trust those sources then you'll probably believe it, completely fall for the attempts at division that play right into the hands of the small number of people who do actually want to cause panic and harm. Because they also need someone to fight against and if you're that person you're handing it to them on a plate. While the scare tactics are milling around in their heads it becomes increasingly unlikely that any thought would be given to the human stories behind such a generalised group of people. Or the fact that they're unfairly discriminating against people for no other reason than the religion they were brought up with. Is it the allure of the school bully again, dragged along with the momentum of the chase, not stopping to think what's fair until the cold light of day when you're sat outside the headmaster's office? In fact, not stopping to think at all, going purely on trust or, dare I say it, faith.
- Empathy -
If there was time to stop and think, what then? I'm curious as to someone's reaction if they were to see in-depth footage of the plight of a Syrian refugee. Are they sympathetic at all? If they are sympathetic is it with an additional shrug of "sad, but not our problem"? What if everyone in every country had a similar, nationalist, "stick to their own" attitude and they were no one's problem, do you just leave people to die if their own country has abandoned them? I imagine that most people would be outraged if they saw a video online of cruelty towards animals. You'd feel pity for the animal, maybe want something to happen to the perpetrator, whether it's justice or even actual harm in return for theirs, maybe you'd want to express an interest in taking that animal in yourself.
If you see that video you don't necessarily know which country the animal lives in and it's a sad story so it really shouldn't make a difference. Yet it does with humans apparently. Do you watch the video of animal cruelty and think, well the animal lives in [insert country here] so there isn't much I can do about it. Or that it's a dog of a certain breed so I have much less sympathy than I would for dogs that are native breeds to my country. I've never heard that expressed before, yet it happens with humans.
I wonder what would happen if you actually sat someone down with an individual refugee or a family for them to explain their story, how they got to our country. If you're not moved by that then fair enough, there's probably no hope for you, you're officially emotionless. But I imagine many people would be, so could they then take any sympathy for their plight and scale it up to everyone in a similar situation? Because that's what everyone else is doing when they defend them - thinking of the human side of the story.
Some people may be thinking at this point, "so if we're not allowed to discriminate then how on earth can you stop people coming into the country, you do-gooders will want to let everyone in because of some sob story or other". Well no, actually. Being pragmatic about an issue such as this, there obviously has to be a limit somewhere and if I'm honest I'm glad that I don't have to come up with a set of rules which decides who takes precedence. But it is possible to come up with some kind of fair set of rules which doesn't just involve a blanket ban on a specific set of people from a certain background. Take people convicted of a crime for example. Protecting the public is obviously of great importance, regardless of whether you're talking about immigration or not. Even with something like that there would be plenty of debates around which crimes did they commit, how long ago did it occur etc. etc. before you could find something that works, but it's certainly a much fairer starting point with a more sound reasoning behind it than a person's religion. Better to focus on finding people who may actually pose a risk as opposed to assuming people will pose a risk because of their religion.
- All About Politics? -
If you've read this so far and wondered if talking about Donald Trump, Brexit and immigration etc. means this is all about politics then it absolutely isn't. People say to me "how come you're interested in politics all of a sudden?". I'm no more interested in it than I was before, which wasn't very much at all, however what has caught my interest is that it's politicians who are now the chief "enablers" of the way of thinking that I've been describing. The war on being nice, if you like.
Politics is the vehicle which is allowing this to spread across the UK, across the USA and wherever in the world there is a champion for divisive views. A win against the odds just reinforces the apparent validity of the views, apparently it's the will of the people. People who know they are fighting against something and seemingly enjoying themselves as they do, but not realising that they're actually fighting against common decency. They're being told that they're threatened so that they have something to be scared of. If you have something to be scared of then you have something to fight against. And if you have something to fight against you have something to hate. Wind them up and watch them go.
It's impossible to deny that there are bad people in the world, but you don't live your life in fear of them all. I want people to be nice to each other, I want people to look after the planet and everything that lives on it. Not only are people fighting against fellow human beings, they're pushing ideas that will harm the planet they live on going forwards too, this time for no other reason than money. And if you're that person pushing your own selfish reasons and prejudices and spreading it to others then yes, I have a problem with that.
A quick disclaimer: when I'm talking about Trump and Brexit being a driving force behind all of this, it's often assumed that means that everyone who voted for them behaves in the ways I've been describing. If you were already at the extreme end of the scale, the Britain First, KKK-type of crowd, then it's pretty much guaranteed that you voted for those two options so I'm definitely talking about you. They're the real school bullies, the ones with a wealth of experience in that area. Then there are the ones who believed in the lies that they were fed, the scaremongering, the ones that chose to close their eyes to the unpleasantness behind the candidates pushing their ideas because they believed in their "solution" to the problems they were hyping up. So I'm also talking about those people, provided they haven't subsequently seen the aftermath, the monster they helped to create, and realised that it wasn't quite what they thought it was going to be.
- Open-minded and Narrow-minded, not Left and Right -
Looking back at what I've written so far, I think I'm being too logical in my arguments here and logic seems to be one thing that has been thrown out of the window of late when it comes to being nice. Acts of kindness are ridiculed as "virtue signalling", wanting to be fair and have everyone as equals is "leftie" nonsense. I really dislike the terms left, right, centre etc, they're completely irrelevant as we're all individuals and can have separate opinions that don't always conform to someone's fixed idea of those labels. True, it's quite likely that certain opinions go hand in hand with others simply in terms of being open-minded or narrow-minded and to be honest I think those terms describe the camps a lot better than left and right.
This can often be demonstrated when the more vocal sections of the narrow-minded people seek to discredit the open-minded people to persuade others that their way is right. Wherever there is a good and noble cause, that cause is attacked because a small number of people use violence in connection with it, or a small minority take a more distorted view, twisting the original intentions out of shape and ending up on the more narrow-minded end of the spectrum despite being branded "the left".
So anti-fascism as an ideology is suddenly wrong because violence is used in protests, feminism as an ideology is wrong because groups of over-zealous teenagers think that it means that all men should be destroyed and women should rule the world. Forget the fact that both ideologies stand for equality and that the vast majority of people support those causes for that very reason. If you try and belittle that then that implies you're against those causes, that you would like to encourage division. There's absolutely no other way of interpreting it, if you consistently attack "the left" then you're not just attacking the narrow-minded people I mentioned that are associated with that label, you're attacking all of the open-minded people too. Why? You can be against a crime committed in the name of a cause or disagree with a point made in its name and still support the cause in the knowledge that they weren't representative of it or faithful to its principles. The only conclusion is that the intention is to divide.
There is one method of attack that is preventable however. The words "racist", "fascist", "Nazi" etc. are thrown around too much and sometimes for too little an offence. Rather like swearing, if you use the words all the time you leave yourself nowhere to go when you need to describe something more extreme or exclaim in a more forceful way. So it leads to actual racists throwing around examples of someone using the words for relatively minor offences to try and wriggle out of the accusation themselves. Being fair to people does also mean not accusing someone of being something they're not, save it for those deserving cases.
- FAKE NEWS! -
Talking of hyperbole, it's now commonplace for our narrow-minded friends to bypass the powers of debate altogether by simply crying "FAKE NEWS!", and I think we all know who this comes from. Take any well reasoned point and confidently say it's a total lie and if people trust you they'll believe you, with the added bonus of turning you into a martyr in the process. The logic goes that you must be even more right if so many people are trying to prove you wrong. It's very difficult to reason with a mixture of calculated denial and ignorance. It's like trying to explain something you know is right to someone with their hands over their ears shouting "LA LA LA LA LA LA NOT LISTENING". And if anyone loses their temper while trying to reason against that brick wall, guess what? Apparently you're back to that accusation of being the intolerant one.
As mentioned above, there's also the alternative method of trying to discredit someone by challenging their use of words such as "racist" etc. to make them sound unreasonable or hysterical. There's a certain irony to people with views that many would consider offensive feigning offence if either they or their hero are being called out on those views. A role reversal of another favoured taunt of "snowflake", which in itself is meant to belittle someone's apparent fragility. This also illustrates the staggering inconsistency that often appears, if you're against an idea, an act, a state of mind etc. then it doesn't matter who that relates to, you're either against it or you aren't. The fact that you can always find an equal and opposite tweet from Donald Trump's past relating to his latest tirade never ceases to amuse in terms of the laughable lack of integrity.
The more manipulative might attempt to push buttons until they can provoke a reaction which isn't fitting with someone who wants to be fair and nice, as if that then nullifies any argument being made. When people find certain views so abhorrent, it's hardly surprising that they get emotional when confronted with those views directly. Reading this paragraph I imagine I'd be challenged on being paranoid, a predictable attempt to discredit anyone who's onto the mind games. And the price of trying to be nice.
In fact, despite all the points that I've tried to make respectfully in this admittedly rather lengthy blog, all it would take would be one quick dismissal of "leftie rubbish" or something similar to convince some people it was wrong. No need to actually formulate a decent argument to argue for their point of view, they're right and I'm wrong, simple as that.
- Virtue Signalling -
When using these tactics, a special place is reserved for celebrities, particularly if they're successful with lots of money, and presumably lots of followers on social media. They're in danger of reaching out to a lot of people and ruining the party by making actual points and having real arguments and being, like, tolerant and understanding and stuff. How they dare think that they can have this kind of outlook when they now have money and huge houses is apparently too much for some people. So their opinions must therefore be fake, they must be just saying it so people *think* they're nice, I mean who would seriously think like that once they've got into their position? Even if someone's sincerity was called into question (and the vast majority of the time it shouldn't be), what is actually wrong with spreading some positivity to thousands of people? Being positive is good, being nice is good, encouraging others to act the same way is good. Ridiculing people for trying to do that just seems absolutely preposterous to me, what's the point? What is there to gain, other than encouraging others to be negative, to be cynical, to be suspicious.
There seems to be some kind of assumption that gaining wealth through, say, writing books or playing football means you have no right to think like a decent human being, money sucks away sincerity and any right to an opinion apparently. Unless you're president I suppose, where your opinion is always the gospel truth, however badly you communicate it.
Communication actually plays an important part in some of this too. In an exchange between someone who's narrow-minded and someone who's open-minded, often the points can be made with such confidence by the narrow-minded person, with such a belief that they're right that the person on the receiving end may start to think........am I wrong? By virtue of being an open-minded kind of person who doesn't want to encourage any kind of discrimination, it would suggest that they're more likely to consider these questions, to be more introspective and actually care if someone accuses them of anything untoward. Seeds have been sown from someone with such confidence that they're right that the person with the more noble thoughts is now starting to doubt themselves. They absolutely depend upon this reaction.
And you know what? Don't doubt. The only intolerance that is acceptable is of intolerance itself. The only time I'm happy to have a lack of empathy with someone is when that person has little empathy themselves. The only time that I will refuse to listen to your opinion is when it's an opinion I've already heard and have rejected outright because it is the polar opposite of what I believe. That's not intolerant, that's not divisive, that's not lacking empathy, it's simply dismissing an ideology that is all of those things. And if I didn't do those things I'd be a hypocrite.
If you communicate division, if you communicate intolerance, if you communicate hate, then don't be surprised if you receive the same feelings and emotions back. It makes perfect sense because none of those things are acceptable and should be rightly derided. Think back to the school idea and imagine some of the points outlined earlier coming out of the mouth of a child:
- "I think those kids should go in for dinner last because of their religion".
- "She's crying because I told her that her family need to go back where they came from, she should respect the fact that others have a different opinion and stop whining".
- "Sorry Sir, I've seen your big house and new sports car so your opinion is invalid. I don't believe he got an A, you're just saying that to look like a generous teacher".
- "Everyone should get their turn to go in first for dinner?!?! Don't be ridiculous, the weak, well-behaved kids are trying to force their agenda on us yet again".
- And lastly, how about a child who cries "FAKE NEWS" at a teacher as they're taught in class but can offer nothing further in support?
There was a tweet that did the rounds recently asking why we should deny someone the right to peacefully advocate genocide. And on further examination it wasn't even coming from someone that believed that genocide was a good thing, it was a point about free speech. If you seriously think that free speech should allow for things like that then there's something very very wrong. Free speech is not a licence to spread hate and where that happens, whether in a real life setting or online, there should be consequences.
The person that is next to you is no better or worse than you. The person next to them is no better or worse than them. And so on, until you stretch that around the world. A man is no better than a woman, a white person is no better than anyone of a different colour, one person's god is no better than another, which in turn is no better than not believing in a god, a heterosexual is no better than a homosexual. Take it down to an individual level and yes, of course, you can formulate specific opinions about a specific person but sorry, to question any of the above statements or something similar is a path to suspicion, to division, to hate. It's that simple. Be nice.
This is a very well written article on your opinions Ian. I won't go through it all but there are just a couple of things I want to add my opinion to.
ReplyDeleteNarrow Minded Vs Open Mindedness.
This is what really irks me in many of your arguments. It's like you're saying one side is taking into account all aspects and analysing the evidence, and the other is making some kind of dumb knee-jerk reaction.
This is just not the case. A lot of arguments from the "Left", are quite ignorant of facts, and arguments from the "Right" are dismissed when they are actually based on reality or have a strong likelyhood of being valid. For example, the sheer numbers involved of net migration to the UK. When I told you how much it was, you clearly had no idea, but I did and that's WHY I feel immigration needs to be reduced. If anyone points out the high numbers of sexual assaults in Europe, your mind will close off to the idea that the migrants and the increased rates have correlation (Well the guys in Auf Weidersehen Pet were bad weren't they?). You admit that migration needs to be controlled but give no ideas how to do it at all, but when people do have ideas, they are closed minded huh? Also people on the other side of the debate often have a bleak projection of the future and give reasons why they have this. You often dismiss this, again with no evidence or historical precedent to do so.
Virtue Signalling
As for the virtue signalling, nıce person argument. I take your points on board and in many cases you have a point.
It's not so much that people are consciously trying to "fake" it, it's that they're making these statements and other factors come into play.
Firstly they might be so rich they don't see the damage immigration is doing to the people at the bottom end of the class scale. An example might be Lily Allen "apologising on behalf of the country" when people at the lower end are like "No, we can't be expected to deal with this and we are NOT apologising if you crossed 15 safe countries to come here"
Secondly they might be quite ignorant to the facts and are treating people with contempt as if they're racist, when said people are actually showing common sense. Gary Lineker for example, calling people out for being horridly racist for saying that "child migrants" were actually adult men. Did he look at the men we were on about? Probably not. Turned out the majority were well into adulthood. Did us lower beings not have a right to say what we saw? Of course we did. Gary was shining a light on himself to look good but really HE was the one taking without basis or putting his head in the sand.
Good evening Mr Trumptrain, I suppose the first thing I would say about the initial point in your comment is that you went straight back to talking about left and right when I was trying to make the point that I don't really think that works. The open-minded and narrow-minded labels I preferred aren't replicas of left and right, that's exactly my point, the "sides" should be split in different ways.
DeleteIf you're open-minded then you'll listen to any facts that are laid on the table and consider them fairly as part of a wider argument. It doesn't necessarily mean that your mind will be changed because that depends on the issue in question, but they'll be taken into account and a judgment can be made. A narrow-minded person would have more of a fixed view, any facts that are thrown their way are far less likely to ever hit home because of that - "this is the way things are and even if you make a compelling point I'm putting my fingers in my ears". To cut off an immediate line of questioning, the fixed view described there is not to be confused with having already heard an argument and rejected it, because that involves previously entertaining the idea before coming to the conclusion that it's not for you.
So when you raise the point about net migration numbers I don't get the impression that anyone is actually doubting any of the published figures, if they're facts there's no point. They're doubting the message that they're being used to portray. You say that when people come up with ideas to control migration that they're accused of being narrow-minded, well yes they will be if that idea is to discriminate against people by religion, which is the obvious idea that comes to mind with Trump's travel ban. Even a random lottery would be preferable to that idea because it's not a fair method.
The narrow-mindedness doesn't come from wanting to solve a problem around immigration it comes from how and why. The narrow-mindedness comes from prejudice against a certain group of people that controlling immigration would happen to solve using that proposed method. It comes from having a view that you don't want certain people in your country, seeing those immigration numbers and thinking "this supports me in helping to get them out, I'll use that". It comes from wanting to deny an opportunity to the majority from a group because of the actions of a few. If immigration is a problem then find a way to solve it fairly, using an established criteria which doesn't unfairly discriminate against ethnicity, religion, nationality, age, gender etc. etc. That's what I'm saying is difficult because if there is an immigration problem then someone needs to have a watertight set of fair criteria for saying "no you can't come in" and equally "yes, you can".
In the virtue signalling point you made, it's interesting that you say that people might be so rich that they don't see the effects at the bottom end of the class scale. That's EXACTLY the argument that is thrown at people like Donald Trump, Theresa May, Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg etc. when they are accused of lacking empathy. So it's a very good point indeed when aimed at someone who has never been at the bottom end of the class scale, because like those people they probably don't understand. This also fits in with the point of consistency that I made, not to make a point against someone because it fits your argument against them, but then say that argument is a nonsense when used against someone you support.
Some of the celebrities may be in the same situation, others will understand perfectly from before they were rich and famous, it depends on their background. And yes, some people from a more privileged upbringing can have empathy too even if they haven't lived that life, it all depends on their outlook and how open-minded they are.
The points raised across the blog apply when cross-referencing with each other, so if you claim that someone has been unfairly throwing around accusations of people being racist then that fits with the points made in that part of the blog. If that did happen then again, as mentioned elsewhere in the blog, it doesn't make the initial point that was being made wrong. If a celebrity thinks it's a good thing to help people in need and communicates that via social media, in most cases they're not doing it to look good, they're doing it for the same reasons that we would say the same thing on our social media. They're just people at the end of the day, it's just more people see what they say. And I don't happen to think that Gary Lineker expressing on his Twitter that helping people is good regardless of their age and gender is a bad thing. Again it all depends on the point of view, some people see people in need, others see "rapist" and "suicide bomber" branded on their foreheads without knowing anything of their background. Glass half full, glass half empty. Open-minded and narrow-minded.
DeleteWell, in relation to the rich celebs, I agree I should have worded that a little better. Wealth and background does not dictate common sense and empathy. Regardless of who you compare them to, when a person is disparaging to another person for voicing concerns about immigration when they themselves are unlikely to feel the affects of it, they're gonna get stick for it. There's no other way to look at it. If Gareth had said "Ok I have seen them and yeah, they look a bit old, but let's help them anyway", the situation would be different. But no, he laid it on thick and got it back.
DeleteAs for the open and closed minded, I still disagree. There is a transfer of ideas in both directions with different priorities put on those ideas by both sides. You might think one idea(for immigration control)is outweighed by your sense of optimism for humanity. I might think your sense of optimism for humanity is misplaced due to the evidence of history.
This is fine, we're all allowed to disagree. But to think you are on the "open minded side", and to talk about it in such a way, comes across as nothing short of arrogance to be honest. In my humble opinion.
Possibly I would give some ground to you on the above on Donald's travel ban. For Brexit, no that's not narrow minded at all, unless the supporter literally wants to stop immigration because they don't like foreigners. Which is very, very rare.
I'm baffled as to how to respond to this really because I thought both the blog and my reply explained clearly that people who want to stop immigration because they dont like foreigners/Muslims etc are EXACTLY the people I'm talking about. And I dispute quite strongly that it's "very very rare".
DeleteWhen newspaper headlines scream out to this effect and the tactics employed to "recruit" people focus almost entirely on this (because sadly it works) I struggle to see how it can be minimised in that way.
I know I'll never convince you because Nigel Farage is the main man behind that thinking and you think he's just a lovely English gentleman. But one thing that is completely inescapable is that regardless of our differing views on the extent of people who don't like foreigners, without them both Brexit & Trump would have lost.
And in terms of the accusation of arrogance, surely that's all about thinking you're better than someone else? The overriding point of the blog is that no one is. If you think I'm arrogant for being confident that not discriminating is the right thing to do then I must be arrogant for believing that not stealing is the right thing to do and not murdering people is the right thing to do. It doesn't make sense.
Well, I don't think we will agree on this thread, any more than we have in the past. I struggle to find or think of anyone that I know who actually has a fear of foreigners or dislikes them to the degree they voted Brexit to get them out. I know MANY people including myself who are concerned about our country, it's people, it's infrastructure, and it's culture in the face of huge immigration. If you can't see any difference between the two then there is nothing I can do or say about that.
ReplyDeleteAnd I guess the reason I always comment and object to your posts is the wording. "Open minded vs closed minded", "Being nice vs not being nice", "Good guys vs Bad guys". It is nothing even close to being that simple. It's just not. All actions and policies have consequences long term, and sometimes doing what you think is good might cause problems down the line and this needs to be thought about FULLY. Not with faith, with cold hard realities.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. That's all I have to say about the matter.
I think the problem here is that you seem to think the blog is aimed at people that think like you. If you're saying that you don't discriminate against foreigners or people of a different religion and you don't know anyone that does then I don't see why there would be a need to continuously defend yourself and others who may think like you. However, if you do continue to think it applies to you when I've clarified what I mean several times then maybe that's an admission of some kind.
DeleteIf you don't like me using the wording 'narrow-minded', 'not nice' or 'bad guys' with people who discriminate then in my opinion your moral compass is off. If a school doesn't allow children to attend that are overweight that's wrong. If a pub doesn't allow people in who wear glasses that's wrong. If a company doesn't employ someone because they're disabled that's wrong. If a country doesn't allow someone to enter because of their religion that's wrong. Narrow-minded, not nice, bad guys.
If you want to reduce immigration then you reduce it for everyone, you reduce it fairly. If you happen to be worried about people from a specific background for specific reasons then by all means increase intelligence and checks before making a decision. If there is then a valid non-discriminatory reason to suggest a specific person shouldn't be allowed to stay in the country according to pre-defined rules then that's the decision. If that's not good enough and you still wish to just say a blanket "no" then yeah, the blog's about you.
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ReplyDeletehttps://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=305392140137895
ReplyDeleteHi man. I know I've semi-retired from online politics but I just felt this blog would benefit a LOT by having a link to this wonderful video! No collusion! \m/
Definitely, because it's going so well let's just sing a patriotic song boisterously and hope for the best. Hope you're well Mr Train.
DeleteI thought of you yesterday when he popped up with Jacob Rees-Mogg's sister haha.
ReplyDeleteAnd yeah I'm okay thanks man, my time away from Twitter made me realise it really has taken a nosedive over the last few years, I have a semi-sock account but only for newsfeeds I need to see!! Hope you're well too Morgz?
Yeah I'm fine thanks, don't use sock account, too much like someone else! I'll leave you a link to a nice video in reply to your own https://www.channel4.com/news/revealed-how-leave-eu-faked-migrant-footage
DeleteIt's not so much a sock account to piss around with like Filipe Feron man, I just only follow music and sports and stuff like that and don't scroll and get into arguments haha!
ReplyDeleteBleh, I don't know what this really had to do with the EU referendum either, and I see your point. It is important to remember that at their worst, these were dramatisations of reality though. Of course boats can land easily and migrant attacks do occur and they're all part of conversations that need to be had.
This really is why I'm happy away from Harvesterofsoro. The people on the fringes of reason like Tommy Robinson, James O'Brien, Katie Hopkins, Carole Cadwallader etc only have power to stir things up if you invite them into your life. Away from Twitter they have NO impact on my life or mind whatsoever. The important things that I need to know are available from many trustworthy sources and I can make my mind up from them. Channel 4 News, Breitbart, CNN, Infowars are best left. Anyway, that's my current opinion! Obviously we still need to deal with fringe people like Lammy, Mogg, Abbott, and Mark Francois but we can make our own minds up when they get fair coverage!
I won't dwell on this as you're obviously actively staying away from it all but to include James O'Brien, Carole Cadwallader, David Lammy and Channel 4 News as your equivalent people on the other side of the others you listed is preposterous. I accept you don't like them and they attack people you do like, and I accept they can come across as being on a bit of a crusade which can get a bit tiresome seeing it over and over, but theirs are examples of completely worthwhile crusades. Whether it's exposing lies, fraud, racism or whatever it might be, they're not playing a political game, they're trying to make things better. Even if you don't agree with what they say, there's nothing about them to not respect. Get right down to the points they're trying to make and they talk sense.
DeleteThe recent video of Carole Cadwallader standing in front of Silicon Valley representatives and telling them they're partly responsible for all the lies and misinformation that's spread through social media is something we should all applaud regardless of our political persuasion. She's not a left wing Katie Hopkins, she's someone doing a good job of investigative journalism and informing us who's a complete fraud. No one seems to care. Lies shouldn't be used to win elections or votes and they clearly were in Brexit and no one seems to care as long as they win. If I won because I cheated I'd rather not win.
If those people are seen as "fringe people" then the world's gone, there should be far more of them.
I didn't expect you to agree man. I'm not going to take those people down point by point as I'm done with it all. The only example I will use is James O'Brien saying as you may remember that people who admire Donald Trump should not wear a poppy because they've "changed sides". If you want to tell me that he's not nudging and winking at people like you while delighting in others shock and anger, think again. Listen to him saying stuff like "bring on the gammons". He got me so so angry in November that was the beginning of the end for me. If I had been in that studio, oh boy, and you know I don't condone violence but it would have been in my mind. He just doesn't help anything apart from polarise. End of rant.
DeleteOn the other end of the spectrum, I am DISGUSTED by the new UKIP. Absolute joke. Horrible people.
Farage still has my heart though! No collusion, no obstruction! \m/
See I find it interesting that something like that would anger you so much. Like in my head a "gammon" by definition is an unreasonable person, probably of the older generation, who gets unreasonably hot under the collar about anything that represents the world moving on, someone who'll throw in anecdotes about how it was much better just after the war when we all knew what it meant to muck in and be British and wants the world to remain there forever. No foreigners, no Muslims, just coming home from a hard day's graft and the wife with the tea on the table, where men are tough and don't talk about feelings, women cook and clean and don't answer back and no one complains if you give a kid a good clip around the ear. If that's how you want your world to be then by all means keep it like that (apart from hitting your kids obviously) but don't try and make everyone else follow suit if they don't want to. The world has moved on, just because you don't want to doesn't mean everyone else can't.
ReplyDeleteI get that some people from an older generation just aren't going to move with the times and there's nothing we can do to change that, but what we don't want is that message to be taken seriously by younger generations. And don't twist that to mean I don't want younger generations to take older people seriously, just the unreasonable messages that linger on perpetuating worn out stereotypes, whether that be gender, race, religion or whatever. And if that takes someone like James O'Brien poking fun at it to make it sound as ridiculous as it is then that's fine with me.
If you're getting angry at him then that must mean you're thinking he's talking about you. If you're the dictionary definition of an unreasonable person stuck in the past then I could understand that, but I don't think that's how you'd think of yourself so I don't know why it would anger you so much. You're basically getting angry at someone making fun of unreasonable people. That's all that's happening with all of the people you're talking about. If you're extending it beyond that to include yourself then that's your misinterpretation. There needs to be a way of communicating to people what's acceptable and what isn't and that's all he's doing. And if you think "acceptable" is subjective then just think of something that isn't acceptable as being something you wouldn't be happy with if it happened to you.
You're telling me in your last few comments that you disapprove of Tommy Robinson, Katie Hopkins and the new UKIP and they're exactly the kind of people James O'Brien is making fun of. The people whose agenda is to divide and by extension the people who listen to them and are suckered into their rhetoric and into believing targeted Facebook ads designed to get them hot under the collar in true "gammon" style. Doesn't matter if it's true or not as long as it gets you the result you want. It's Maradona in 86, doesn't matter if you score with a handball as long as you win. And I'd also include Trump and Farage supporters in that, you obviously wouldn't.
Step back and actually listen to some of those people getting you hot under the collar but listen in the context of the new UKIP/Tommy/Katie supporters etc and don't apply it to yourself. I'd be surprised if it didn't make a lot more sense to you.
Well, the "Gammon" jibe actually doesn't cause me much trouble at all. It was the main point that he said that people who admire Trump should not wear a poppy. You didn't touch on that so I guess(or at least I hope)that you're not going to try to justify it. Even if you want or try to, it's clearly an inflammatory and polarising thing to say and whether he means to or not he is clearly playing to his audience and not changing any minds. I can see why you like him so much though because you are exactly his audience.
ReplyDeleteSo, that's my point really. The people who play directly to audiances(Jon Snow's "never seen so many white people" comment also was polarising hence my C4N suspicion), whose sole purpose seems to be to do that I can really do without seeing on my phone every day. Paul Joseph Watson OR James O'Brien(Yes I still see them the same).
I've never heard the poppy comment before, and contrary to what you said I don't "like him so much", I occasionally see videos or tweets where he always talks sense, that's it, I don't seek him out. The poppy comment is admittedly mischievous, I mean I say on this blog save the Nazi comments for people who really deserve it.
DeleteBut I think one thing that I've never seen you acknowledge is the point that kind of comment is really trying to touch on. I don't have a brilliant grasp on 1930s history but I do know that the kind of things we've been seeing over the last few years, of demonising a group of people, of whipping up support with nationalist ideals, of trying to censor the media so that your voice is the only one heard....that's how Nazi Germany all started, so you can't blame people for being concerned that it's not going to escalate. Now I really don't believe for one second that Trump or Farage are suddenly going to attempt to invade other countries (Farage would need some power for a start), but if a parent finds their child is taking drugs you can't blame them for wanting to take steps so they don't become an addict, however unlikely that may be.
Your comment about James O'Brien and Paul Joseph Watson again is preposterous. PJW is someone that, regardless of what he's talking about, I never agree with. He talks complete rubbish, all agenda no logic, no redeeming features anywhere. JOB talks sense and is very good at dismantling the arguments of idiots like PJW, yet you dismiss him over the odd comment that offends you. I get that you wouldn't embrace him for that very reason but I don't see how you can't see a conversation of him intelligently breaking down people's arguments and not think he's based on common sense and logic and ultimately noble goals. Maybe that's the real reason you don't like him, because he exposes the people you want to win for what they really are.
The same point goes for Jon Snow, you can't dismiss someone who talks complete sense all the rest of the time on one comment. There's no one in my list of people I dislike that I do that on, they're all people that are fundamentally wrong in their whole agenda, not good, moral people who occasionally have a foot in mouth moment.
The Nazi thing is old and tired now, as you say so yourself. If you want to look at the similarities between 1930s Germany and today, go right ahead. The thing is that when people look at it, IF THEY WANT TO, it becomes like the believers in Nostrodamus in reverse and they latch onn to points and ignore the rest. It ignores things like Britain and the US having plenty of nationalism themselves at that time which can be compared to things today but we sure as hell didn't stand for the Nazis. If people really think we are on the road to fascism, okay, but I think the vast majority of times it is said is is part of a subliminal attempt to demonise others for the purpose of validating their own views. "Creating an enemy" as you might say. James O'Brien included. Mischief I can take but he was sat behind his microphone, red faced, calmly spewing out his bile like a cerebral thug. Kinda like Tommy Robinson without the potential for fisticuffs IMO.
ReplyDeleteTo take my comparison between the two types out of the preposterous zone, think of it this way. Is Mr OB backslapped and whooped by quotation mark "Liberals" and Foxtrot Bravo Papa Echo types? Does he stir up anger and revulsion amongst the right(My hand is up)? And is he largely irrelavant amongst the normal population(Maybe he's known as the guy who had to leave Newsnight because he couldn't be impartial)? No swap him for PJW and reverse the left and right. Same coin, different side.
As for Jon Snow....look, maybe you're right but he has come under scrutiny for impartiality a few times and he seems to be creeping into the OB/PJW fringes too.
But, I just want to be a normal person again and his new show is on a bad time for me, so I don't care either way.
Don't come on with the "creating the enemy" rubbish when you clearly support Trump and Farage whose whole schtick is based on that. That's not creating an enemy, they created themselves by talking about everything in terms of some kind of war.
DeleteYou're talking about stirring up anger and revulsion amongst the right and you know what, good. The Conservative party are in danger of heading more and more into UKIP territory, it absolutely needs someone to continue pointing the finger to prevent that from happening. Boris, Mogg, Francois, Farage etc should be laughed out of town for the power-hungry, agenda-driven, outdated chancers they are and whoever's banging that particular drum is fine by me. If they stir up anger and revulsion by doing that then like I say, good. Because I don't really care about the feelings of anyone that's angered by those people being ridiculed because they clearly don't have a great deal of empathy themselves. As I've said many times before, the only intolerance that's acceptable is that of intolerance itself.
I'd be fairly confident that other current and former Conservative politicians such as Clarke, Major and Heseltine for example wouldn't be bothered about those people getting ridiculed because I don't think they'd have time for them themselves, they're the right and I wouldn't have any interest in offending them. While some of their views might end up differing to mine, they're not out there trying to divide people, they're just coming from a different angle. That's how things should be, different opinion, shake hands and move on. There's no way you can do that with the people you're a fan of, they created the dividing line and if you think people on the left are being divisive then that's in the name of pointing a huge finger at people who really need to take a long hard look at their outlook.
The thing that is most scary about the whole thing is that you're basically describing being a good person and having noble values of demanding a society without discrimination as being "on the fringes". That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard but it's actually happening because the boundaries of what's acceptable are being pushed further and further the wrong way.
I'd ask you to really really think hard about what you think this world should look like. Should there be more Jon Snows or more Nigel Farages? I mean I know what your initial reaction to that would be, but I mean really really think what that would mean. If you're talking in Darwinian terms, if you're heading down that route you're selecting for selfishness and pig-headedness over empathy and humanity and all for what? So you see fewer brown faces in your home country? You're siding with dinosaurs and hopefully that way of thinking will disappear as swiftly as they did and all power to the people who are trying to achieve that.
I think we have discussed this over the years to the point where we have to agree to disagree. This country has been ripped in two with us both on opposing sides and it's got completely out of control. Something needs to change and we need to meet in the middle. I'm just trying to sit in that middle now and get on with my life. I think you're fundamentally wrong in many things and blissfully ignorant on many others. This has been discussed ad nauseum between us and I know you think the same about me so it's cool.
ReplyDeleteWhat have we achieved by discussing our views with each other over the years? Nothing, you haven't given an inch and neither have I. That's a micro example of why the country is so fucked right now and I'm sick of it. I mean, just imagine, my boy Mogg and the DUP who I have stuck up for for so long have essentially canned Brexit and they are just one of many factions who just won't give an inch and come meet in the middle. It's very sad. So I just want to concentrate on life now. I got a million problems but I can't change peoples minds on Twitter so why even bother. I'm done. Take care of yourself man, and just remember that things aren't black and white and that grey area isn't always a bad place to be. \m/
I totally get that you're obviously avoiding this kind of thing by not being on Twitter, so apologies if this has gone on longer than intended and obviously as always is never going to get anywhere.
DeleteAs a final word (because it's my blog haha) I would say that I fundamentally disagree with the fact that we have to meet in the middle, to be honest if there is a design behind all of this generally speaking then that's it - to throw out outlandish statements and ideas that are so far one way that the middle ground effectively becomes the right. And I hate the terms left and right but they're unavoidable here.
Imagine if we had a policeman and a criminal and the policeman says this is the law, you're nicked. The criminal then responds by saying hold on a second I don't think it's as easy as that, we need to find some middle ground. Ok, I won't do the murder and the rape, but I should maybe be allowed to steal and drink drive, what do you think?
Now I know your immediate reaction to this will be to say oh my god he's calling me a criminal!!! Not at all, that side of the analogy doesn't work as well, but on the other side of it doing things that are morally right and morally acceptable is a kind of law in a way. A set of less formal rules to live your life by, like is doing this thing hurting anybody in any way etc. And if you think of it in that way I don't then like people who break those rules. So you can see from that angle why I'd never accept meeting in the middle, everyone else needs to come over here.
Well, look. I couldn't disagree more. Whilst you might feel that the "fringe left" we have been talking about should be mainstream, MY skin freezes over at the thought because the following would be ignored by many and I personally predict a very bad future....this is only a list I came up with in a few minutes:
ReplyDeleteTories might be a shambles but it doesn't mean Labour are the good guys or indeed not even worse
Someone might say they are fighting racism, but may be going about it in a way that's counter productive.
It's not always racist to be against immigration.
There are issues with the EU that need to be addressed that everyone accepted before the referendum but seem to have been forgotten about.
It's not possible to have complete liberty for everyone, or anarchy would prevail.
Left wing economies policies may well spell future disaster.
Human nature and history show that a trusting multiculturalism to work is a huge leap of faith.
Religious freedom and civil liberties are sometimes incompatible and this needs to be accepted on occasion.
You can't have unlimited immigration, so unless you have ideas of how to manage it effectively don't shoot down all the ideas to limit it and brand them as racist.
There are some elements in different cultures that need extra attention, and it's not only acceptable to address them but foolish not to.
The "good guys" may not be all they say they are or even what you think they are.
Some people actively benefit from "unfairness", so it is not beyond the realms of possibility for them to exaggerate it or even create it to benefit from it even more. Some people make a living from "fighting" it like James O'Brien.
It's ridiculous to judge people of times gone by by today's standards(See Winston Churchill, Horatio Nelson etc).
People HAVE been seriously adversely affected but multiculturalism, immigration, culture clashes and that needs to be taken into account and not whitewashed over. Frank discussions need to be had around this without fear. And upon accordingly.
Some people DO display themselves on social media as being caring about people they have never met, to cover up they are obnoxious in real life and wouldn't even piss on their neighbours if they were on fire.
Wanting to leave a political union to have a national policy like most of earth is certainly not xenophobic.
We have finite resources and it's madness to think that we can grow our countries population at a city sized level every year and the infrastructure can keep up.
You will probably strike all of these out as ridiculous and my point is proven...however if you don't....you will see that middle ground needs to be found by mixing different inputs.
Despite us having discussed this a million times I still really don't think you're understanding the fundamental point of my arguments. All of the things you've listed above are pitting "right" against "left". Your general point seems to be that if there are bad people trying to use left wing ideas then that means we need to meet somewhere in the middle. Your middle is therefore between right and left.
DeleteMy whole point, which I thought I made clear in the original blog, is that it's not left v right, it's wrong v right. So my middle is between wrong and right. And I thought I made it clear in the last reply, I'm sure you'd agree that you don't want to move to the middle ground there. That middle ground is giving things up that are morally right to exchange them with things that are morally wrong, there are no politics involved in that debate. I'm not going to say that I give up on the idea of people being treated equally and I'll let you have racism if it means we can all have a group hug, that's preposterous.
So I'll answer each of your points in turn to explain where I'm coming from:
The Tories are a shambles, Labour aren't perfect either, it's a matter of preference and personally I would want to pick the option that is least harmful to the people that live in our country. That's a matter of opinion, of what you consider harmful, and what you're effectively happy to turn a blind eye to.
If there are people that are fighting racism in a way that's counter-productive that doesn't mean fighting racism is bad. If a policeman assaults a rapist while arresting him, should we think about stopping arresting rapists because of his actions? No, racism is wrong, fight it while it exists. If people break the law while fighting racism then treat them like anyone that broke the law, quite simple.
Correct, it isn't always racist to be against immigration, unfortunately we've seen ample evidence that racism, xenophobia, Islamophobia, call it what you will, have been used extensively to whip people into a frenzy and make immigration a key issue in the eyes of many. If anyone is arguing against immigration without playing on that then they have every right to air their views.
I'm sure there are issues with the EU as with any organisation, air those issues from within and ensure that every country that's part of the EU can then benefit from any changes that are made.
"It's not possible to have complete liberty for everyone", I don't even understand what you're saying with that one so can't comment. I'd read it as we need to treat some people as second class citizens but I doubt that's what you mean.
"Left wing economies policies may well spell future disaster". With the emphasis on "may", all speculation. And off topic really given this is more about how people are treated.
The next few points all lump together, so I won't answer them individually and repeat myself. Basically you're saying multiculturalism doesn't work, different religions and cultures can have bad elements, good guys aren't always good guys, people aren't always sincere in fighting unfairness. Again, I'm talking about wrong v right, not left v right, white v black, Christian v Muslim, whatever. Shock horror, there are actually left wing people, Muslims, black people etc etc who are bad people. If they are bad people then I'm also talking about them in any point that I make, it's not restricted to white Christians. You may find this hard to believe but I abhor terrorists as much as you do, I just restrict who's tarred with the same brush as them to other terrorists, rather than people who share their religion or country. I don't associate you as a white, right wing Western man with any terrorist acts committed by white, right wing Western men because you're not a terrorist.
If there are issues where different cultures do clash, then find what caused that clash and work on it. It's not a reason to immediately say it doesn't work unless of course you have a vested interest in not wanting it to work.
DeleteThe points about Winston Churchill etc wouldn't be made if people weren't holding them up as heroes. I don't see any problem in people pointing out that yes, they may have done some heroic act but actually they had these flaws too. And times do change but people should be intelligent enough to factor that in when taking in information. It would make much more sense to celebrate someone's specific achievements rather than persist with claiming they're a hero if character flaws are clearly present.
As with the immigration issue, wanting to leave a political union is not xenophobic in itself. The people that led the campaign to leave said political union made it xenophobic, garnering much support from doing so. Xenophobia turned the tide in winning the Brexit vote, hence many people's problem with it.
We've had the numbers game debate many times on immigration, if that's solely what the debate is about then fine, very valid point. Most of the time it isn't.
So I hope this finally puts everything to bed, although I doubt it because I'm sure I've made all of these points before many many times. Right wing people aren't all bad, left wing people aren't all good. Racists are all bad, fighting racism is good. Treating people unfairly is bad, treating people fairly is good. Mistrusting people you don't know based on who their ethnicity/religion/nationality etc before knowing anything about their character is bad, having an open mind is good. Being insincere and inconsistent in your arguments is bad, being sincere and consistent is good.
I could go on but I feel like you're already thinking this is patronising. I feel like many of your points are arguments as to why you should have licence to treat some people unfairly. You shouldn't ever have licence to treat people unfairly unless they've done something that means they forfeit that right.
So before you kneejerk another reply just think about what you'd be saying. My last reply to you and the start of this one too is saying that I firmly believe in standing up for what's morally right and that we shouldn't be meeting in the middle with what's morally wrong (please don't read this as left wing v right wing). Your last reply started by saying you couldn't disagree more. YOU'RE ARGUING THE POINT THAT BEING MORALLY WRONG SHOULD BE ALLOWED. That's not what you mean. You're having a different argument to the one I'm having. I know you and you're largely on the side of being morally right, but occasionally you want to break that by turning a blind eye to discrimination where it affects immigration. That's it. I'm not saying that you or any other right winger wants to drown puppies or trip up old ladies. BUT I'm against anyone that does want to drown puppies AND I'm against anyone that wants to trip up old ladies AND I'm against anyone that wants to turn a blind eye to discrimination. They're not all the same person but I'm against all of those things. To paraphrase Basil Fawlty PLEASE tell me you get the idea before one of us dies.....
I'm not gonna pursue another long list of counter arguments Ian, so I'm gonna take it all the way back to the start. My list of things up there, I'm not necessarily talking about you, but there are people out there who I BELIEVE blindly fight an agenda of what they may believe is "right"(Left?? Whatever) but I find highly ignorant and possibly dangerous. T have given this years and years of consideration and will not be swayed on this point. I also believe there are people on the right(possibly wrong) side that I'm sick of seeing thir mindless agenda as well. So now I feel better away from Twitter and away from BOTH sets of people who I find completely irrelavent in discussions today. You might disagree on one side of them, fine, but I don't like them okay?
ReplyDeleteSo with that, I will leave you. I may resurface if I am still alive and kicking for the great event next year known only as "Trump 2020". Take care sir.
I don't ever question your right to not like the people you don't like, but I think for the people you don't like there's an element of not liking them because they're armed with the ability to expose the flaws in some of your arguments. Because generally speaking that's probably what put them on my radar and why I'd respect them.
DeleteAnd with their arguments coming down hard on the side of being morally right, you perceive that as then being smug and condescending as you firmly believe that you're a good person and how dare they question that. I get that, I think that's how you see me sometimes.
But I'd end by questioning how someone that is doing something morally right can be highly ignorant and possibly dangerous. If they're highly ignorant and possibly dangerous then that suggests to me that they're not morally right. And if they're pretending to be morally right then they hit my mark earlier of being insincere and inconsistent, so bad.
The original blog post was originally born from me having a problem with people in positions of authority and influence spreading messages of division and hate. Spreading the opposite message is therefore good. So in a way, even insincere messages of unity and tolerance can do good if they change someone's mind, the only way that can really be considered dangerous is if an individual managed to get everyone to trust them completely to gain some kind of power and then turned out to be nothing like that.....I'm not really sure the likes of James O'Brien are Senator Palpatine in disguise are they?
Enjoy your time away from people with a mindless agenda, I think that rules you out of taking any notice of Trump 2020 though! :p
If a man opens his home to the homeless people in his town on Christmas Day, is he being morally right or wrong? He doesn't know much about about the five men who turn up and his wife and three children have concerns. Is he morally right or wrong? Is there even a true moral stance on the situation? I think there are many ways to look at things the "radical left"(please read that in the voice of the leader of the free world)only look at the one side. So they would maybe support the man opening his doors, being IGNORANT of the DANGERS...See what I just answered there?
ReplyDeleteI think that wraps it up man. Any more questions I'll see you in Facebook as you have been ignoring me on there. :)
I'd look at that completely differently (surprise, surprise). The wider issue in that example is about helping the homeless and not wanting that even to exist as an issue. Tackling the issues that cause homelessness in the first place while trying to ease the plight of anyone that currently finds themselves in that situation. That's the stance you'd broadly interpret as morally right.
DeleteThat doesn't mean that someone who believes in all of the above is then a hypocrite for not opening their doors on Christmas day to homeless people, it's the same arguments the idiots that often turn up in Gary Lineker's comments try and use. Oh you love immigrants so much? Why not put some in your spare bedroom?! Believing there should be an adequate support structure for people in times of hardship isn't the same as becoming that support structure personally. I'd think that would be fairly obvious but you've tried to use it, so....
If someone does open their home to homeless people on Christmas day then all power to them, they're trying to do a very good thing. However I can't imagine that's a common occurrence in the way you described - that they know absolutely nothing of the people they're inviting in.
The tone of your reply is basically suggesting that people should assume that homeless people are bad, rather than that they'd be grateful for the kind act. Not necessarily homeless people I'll give you that, you're projecting your feelings on immigrants onto them so maybe you don't think that about good old British homeless people, who are clearly far more trustworthy.
You're assuming that being morally right and being a good person means closing your eyes to danger. It doesn't mean trusting everyone, it means treating people fairly. It doesn't mean holding the door open and saying "hey everyone, come right in, we love you all, we don't ever believe any of you would be bad", it means having a fair set of rules to govern that process.
And I rarely look on Facebook unless someone tells me I should. So in this case I don't think I'll bother :)
The tone of my reply shouldn't really suggest anything. The man may well be the best, holiest, most excellent man that ever lived. The homeless people may well be the same but fell on bad times. But would he be a little bit silly to take that chance, even if it's morally right? Probably yes....which only answers your question as to how radical leftists can be dangerous. They may think they have the moral high ground, and in a perfect world they may well do. But the world is far from perfect and it's a worry when politicians show these traits and it's people who are out of the way who have to deal with it. I can show you some places where that has happened should you care to take an interest.
ReplyDeleteEverything else and the massive plethora of circumstances that can be analysed we will have to leave for now.
You've completely ignored every point of my reply by the looks of things so I don't even know what the point of this is any more. At least if you're going to continue replying make it something that actually challenges any points I make instead of carrying on with the same thing you said previously.
DeleteAnd are you seriously describing someone who lets a homeless person into their house as a "radical leftist". Oh my god, look at that radical leftist helping an old lady across the road! If she can't manage to cross herself that's her problem. Sorry, there's no analogy to foreigners there, so probably doesn't work for you.
It seems like you're now describing kind people who are too trusting as "radical leftists" now. And like I said in my previous reply, you're inserting the bit about being too trusting, I'm saying be as cautious as you would be in any other situation and do all the checks you like to be confident about people.
I think we always get into these scrapes because we end up going off on tangents, making two many points in one go that we can both answer, using straw man arguments etc....let's be honest here, you go off piste as much as I do!!
ReplyDeleteLet's rewind and make it simple...
Can you see a situation where someone's crusade to be "morally right" can put people in danger and can be ignorant of those said dangers in doing so? I mean like, can you just say yes or no?
If yes, then you can see why I worry about certain people, whether you agree with my reasons or not. If your answer is no, then that's your opinion.
There's no way that I can say that every single person who's aim is to be morally right is going to have a good outcome every single time, so the answer to that question is obviously going to be yes.
DeleteBut that's only going to happen where someone has no common sense and no sense of danger. That doesn't seem like a strong foundation for the argument you're making. Which is basically "please everybody, don't try and do the right thing because I think there's a strong chance you might be stupid and people will get hurt".
I mean you're obviously going round the houses to talk about immigration, in all of my replies I'm talking about doing the right thing generally. But because you're fighting me when I'm fighting the corner for what's morally right, I don't think you're attacking what's morally right generally, I think you're only attacking it in the case of immigration. If you actually said that then it wouldn't make all of these replies look like you're basically fighting the corner of immorality.
How about this? If you took 1000 people that have moved into this country, how many of them would ultimately go on to commit a crime, say? And if you took 1000 Brits and found out whether they'd also committed a crime, I wonder what we'd find there?
If you're saying don't let the 1000 people into the country just in case there are problems in future, do you then have a desire to look at those Brits who committed a crime and maybe find a way to stop the kind of families they came from having more children in future? Because if you don't do that then that could put people in danger.
I mean like really...DID I SAY that man was a hypocrite, or whether he was right or wrong? No I didn't because he is neither!! I just wanted you to see the underlying point!! Uggggghh! :D
ReplyDelete"How about this? If you took 1000 people that have moved into this country, how many of them would ultimately go on to commit a crime, say? And if you took 1000 Brits and found out whether they'd also committed a crime, I wonder what we'd find there?"
ReplyDeleteI don't know, I'm not making any expectations either way. But it depends if the destination has got it's current problems under control and has the infrastructure to cope with the arrivals.
"But that's only going to happen where someone has no common sense and no sense of danger. That doesn't seem like a strong foundation for the argument you're making. Which is basically "please everybody, don't try and do the right thing because I think there's a strong chance you might be stupid and people will get hurt".
"
Not really....remember my list up their? I'd say that if people argue blindly against those points or other similar ones I'd probably class them as a bit risky and yes a "radical leftist".
The strange thing with you is that you answered them all very rationally, but when it comes to specifics we seem to clash on them...so maybe you're not actually a radical leftist just very argumentative? Let's just agree that you will likely give the radical leftists more benefit of the doubt, and I will give the radical right wingers more understanding because of our own perspectives and life experiences. We need to stop arguing now, if you have any burning questions or comments that I haven't answered please feel free to ask them directly now, or we can leave it.
I think it's worth clarifying, because I think we're way out of sync with our terminology. You just said that you give radical right wingers more understanding because of "our" own perspectives and life experiences. Now my understanding of "radical right winger" is literally a racist, Nazi knucklehead. Which makes me think our terminology is different.
Delete"Radical leftist" is more difficult to define and not really a term I'd see any merit in using, but I would probably assume it would be people taking things too far, for example people who don't want equality but actually want the current minorities to have the upper hand. That seems to me to be an extreme version and the best I can come up with that's a radical and out there interpretation. Because obviously radical means something that's very very different from the normal view of that type.
Given your usage above I assume your definition of both is less extreme than mine, so given your opinion that people on the left seem to be using language that divides them from you it seems like you're attempting to do the same by describing people with quite normal views as "radical".
In terms of your immigration argument I'll ask one last thing in terms of danger and risk. If someone said to you we have people wanting to come into the country who are Australian, Swedish, Afghan, Syrian and Nigerian. Please could you help us out and put those in order of how desirable they are in terms of having them in our country? Just a quick 12345.
Well an example of a radical leftist to me would be Angela Merkel. Seriously. She knew that her policy had the risk of fracturing relations with the countries that the migrants would have to walk across, she knew that it could raise the profile of the very far right in response, she knew that there was a crime risk. People like me said "Oh look they're all men, can you watch this?", people who said "Pssshht, you uncompassionate racist" or something more eloquent are radical leftists. Please NOTE with the sex crimes in Germany, the rise of the right wing etc which you can see happened she took those risks, lost, and is now dealing with the consequences. We all are....Brexit probably would not have got that extra 2 percent without the fear she raised.
DeleteA right wing radical, say Tommy Robinson. I hate the man but I see why he is popular. You know I have seen and been close to people from a certain faith who worry me greatly and when radical leftists say "Oh that's just you, shhhh" it makes me warm if not to Tommy then definitely Donald Trump.
I have to do this right....so I will but I want you to do it back.
Australia, Sweden, Nigeria, Syria, Afghanistan! You next!
I have a big problem with you saying that basically by Merkel wanting to help people you're accepting that the profile of the far right will raise in response. Now clearly that has happened, but instead of attacking what made that happen, surely the more logical and blindingly obvious question is that we need to try and do something about why there are so many people moving to the far right.
DeleteThe presence of said migrants isn't an explanation for the rise of the far right. Like you said previously, people would have the right to raise concerns about numbers in relation to things like jobs, housing etc. if the debate ends there, but it doesn't excuse the support for the far right. The far right ARE racist and will turn migrants from simple competition into enemies, so if you align yourself with the far right then don't be surprised if people accuse you of being racist, that's a no-brainer.
Of course I'll do it back, although I'm gobsmacked that you don't already know the answer......all equal of course?! If on an individual basis anything is found out about a particular person's background then that would move them down the list or take them off the list all together, but there isn't enough information from what I gave you to start putting anyone in order. And you gave a very predictable answer.
I was joking about the argumentative bit, I don't think I made that clear!
ReplyDelete
ReplyDelete"I have a big problem with you saying that basically by Merkel wanting to help people you're accepting that the profile of the far right will raise in response. Now clearly that has happened, but instead of attacking what made that happen, surely the more logical and blindingly obvious question is that we need to try and do something about why there are so many people moving to the far right."
Going too far left, gives the far right a leg up. Proven, done, in action as we speak. Worried about the far right, don't go too far left. I don't THINK you will accept this, so so be it. If Angela Merkel had said "Ok....let's help as many people as we can without raising peoples legitimate fears and do it quickly", and it had worked...we would not be here today. She was told, she ignored, she suffers, the far right have been mobilised because she didn't deal with the fears of her own people well enough.
"The presence of said migrants isn't an explanation for the rise of the far right. Like you said previously, people would have the right to raise concerns about numbers in relation to things like jobs, housing etc. if the debate ends there, but it doesn't excuse the support for the far right. The far right ARE racist and will turn migrants from simple competition into enemies, so if you align yourself with the far right then don't be surprised if people accuse you of being racist, that's a no-brainer."
The fact that people I would call radical leftists ignored issues with immigration in Rotherham for example, gave the far right a MASSIVE boost. Sure, it's not the presence of migrants alone, definitely not, but poor management of migration is amongst other things that I would find harder to defend admittedly.
"Of course I'll do it back, although I'm gobsmacked that you don't already know the answer......all equal of course?! If on an individual basis anything is found out about a particular person's background then that would move them down the list or take them off the list all together, but there isn't enough information from what I gave you to start putting anyone in order. And you gave a very predictable answer."
"Just do it 12345" and then say that you won't do it. You could have given me the option of all equal. However, go back to my list and you will see that I do believe that some cultures integrate better than others. I have evidence of this....as I said before come and have a look around Sheffield with me and see who integrates BETTER. I'm not saying that any group CAN'T integrate but it's not exactly being racist to observe there are some differences. It would be ignorant to say there WEREN'T!
Look, I know that racists will get angry if you put more foreigners in their face, that's completely obvious. You argued yourself that opposing immigration doesn't make you racist, doesn't make you far right, yet here you are arguing that more immigration makes more people move to the far right. If that's the case then logic suggests that there's a lot more racism to opposing immigration than you were making out, so I think you've argued against one of your own points there.
DeleteThe language you use is very telling - you choose to use "issues with immigration in Rotherham". Now people really need to get a grip of how that was allowed to happen and try to stop it from happening again, but to describe it as simplistically as you did there is the kind of thing that is used continuously to recruit people to your cause.
If someone really put their mind to it, it would be very very easy to take a group such as people who listen to metal and create the same narrative, its already happened with the West Memphis 3 and Columbine in America. You're a part of that particular group yourself and you'd say that's ridiculous and fight their/our corner, yet there will still be people in America who spout the same narrative as you do about immigrants, but this time about nasty, baby-sacrificing Satanists in black who will murder your kids if given the chance.
They have evidence like you do, I mean look at what metal drove Klebold and Harris to, look at what happened with black metal in Norway in the 90s, it's all documented and these sick people need to be stopped, ban it all now and lock these people up.
And have you SEEN some of these people? They don't INTEGRATE. They just wander around sticking to their own kind, not even trying to interact with the rest of us. I'm not saying they CAN'T integrate but it's not exactly being metalist to observe there are some differences. It would be ignorant to say there WEREN'T!
I honestly do think that narrative is as plausible as yours. There were reasons why Rotherham happened, there were reasons why Columbine happened. The ACTUAL REASONS weren't immigration or metal. And yes of course, without immigration it wouldn't have happened blah blah blah, with that logic let's cut Yorkshire off from the rest of the country because the Yorkshire Ripper came from there, just to be on the safe side. BUILD A WALL!
"Look, I know that racists will get angry if you put more foreigners in their face, that's completely obvious. You argued yourself that opposing immigration doesn't make you racist, doesn't make you far right, yet here you are arguing that more immigration makes more people move to the far right. If that's the case then logic suggests that there's a lot more racism to opposing immigration than you were making out, so I think you've argued against one of your own points there."
ReplyDeleteEr, no, I said that poor handling of immigration does, and I said there were other reasons maybe where some people can be racist which I believe is in the minority. They aren't exlusive, and radical leftism/poor migration control DOES fuel the far right. Whether that's by too high numbers or ignoring problems with integration.
"The language you use is very telling - you choose to use "issues with immigration in Rotherham". Now people really need to get a grip of how that was allowed to happen and try to stop it from happening again, but to describe it as simplistically as you did there is the kind of thing that is used continuously to recruit people to your cause."
One of the causes of the problem WAS ignorance of the problem and fear of being called racist. This fear is instilled by redical leftists who call racism when there is none.
The rest of it we have discussed many times...I don't feel like going further with this because I feel it is going off on a track we don't need to go down but if you want to ask any questions that need a direct answer feel free to ask.
Now...here is my question to you. Why can't we find some middle ground here. Can you just say that in hindsight immigration has been handled badly in different places and that has caused problems? If you can just say that we have middle ground. If you can't agree with that..or think it's unfair then why? The evidence is there for you to see? And if there is...maybe a fear of those mistakes happening again and worry about people who seem to be allowing to happen is not that "bad", is it?
I don't think there's any doubt that immigration HAS caused problems as we've already discussed. Making statements that are then perceived as an open invitation to all come and join us in Europe aren't helpful if that prompts an influx of people that are too numerous to cope with. If you feel that me saying that is middle ground then fine, but I don't really see it that way.
DeleteThe issues that creates for me are administrative in terms of processing that influx of people, which then moves onto the more human issues of housing and supporting those people wherever they decide to settle. The location is going to then decide whether that proves to be a problem or not depending on how that particular location can cope, some will cope better than others. In time hopefully those people will get jobs and support their families and time will tell if that creates issues with the native population in terms of jobs.
So far I haven't mentioned any of the usual things you'd throw out there, because my design isn't to try and persuade you that they shouldn't be here. I'm talking neutrally about the logistics of managing an influx of people. You want to look at the negative elements of crime and integration because you've already decided you don't want them here regardless. That's prejudice, that's discrimination and that's the part I don't like.
Say you found as many as 1 in 100 migrants who went on to commit a crime. Wouldn't you be curious as to why the 1 was different from the 99, rather than just saying no, sorry this isn't working? Because it is working for many people. You can also then work towards either stopping anyone that's like that 1 from 100 from gaining entry or working with people like them to make sure they don't end up like that person. If you don't even want to consider that as an option then your prejudice has won. And your acceptance of the ranking of the countries pretty much shows that to be the case. You can talk about people being solely concerned with numbers and not wanting to be seen as racist, but when pushed you show that it's not just about numbers and you are prejudiced against certain people. THAT'S why I have no interest in finding middle ground on this issue. Return to the numbers and ditch the prejudice and bingo we have middle ground, otherwise no.
So would you say that a 1000 Australians and 1000 Syrians would be exactly the same in how easy they would be to integrate? If yes, do you really think so? In terms of language, culture, likelihood of being able to completely intermingle etc? Just a yes or no answer.
ReplyDeleteWell I'm glad we found some middle ground at least that immigration is a challenge and I hope you agree that it needs to be dealt with carefully.
The thing that bothers me is that you have often said "You start with numbers and then move on to something else"...like you think it's either black and white. The numbers thing is a big one and even you concede it's a problem. So we know immigration is a challenge and you still try and gloss over that. When FURTHER problems are added ON TOP of the numbers, which certainly aren't mutually exclusive....you say "OH I KNEW IT WAS ABOUT THIS ALL ALONG! PREJUDICE!". The two things can be apparent at the same time and the two problems together actually make the conversation and planning around it more complicated but you seem to back away from it purely because the integration and crime issues seem to rattle you a bit because they don't fit in with your ideals? It really isn't one or the other. It's ALL OF IT. It's a whole conversation and ALL of it is relevant.
I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with integration and on what level you expect that anyway. Obviously Australians speak the language so wouldn't have that as barrier, but if the Syrians are able to get jobs and go to school etc. then who's to say that given time they're not going to be as integrated into society as someone like me? My integration with my surroundings is that I have a job and I use the shops in my town, that's it, I'm not really sure how much more you want.
DeleteAs for the last point I really don't think there's any point in having this discussion any longer because no matter how hard I try and explain you really don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Or choose not to in the vain hope of trying to trip me up somewhere. My "ideals" in connection with this topic are that people are treated fairly. Honestly, I don't think that's too much to ask. If some migrants commit crimes then apparently that then rattles me because it doesn't fit in with my ideal of treating people fairly? It doesn't make sense.
You talk as if my agenda is that all migrants are perfect upstanding citizens and if some of them aren't then oh dear, looks like Ian's wrong and he won't dare admit it. The whole issue is not to label the group based on the actions of a few, whatever that group is. Unless you have a group where more people are causing problems than not I'd say that's a fair stance to take. That's blatantly not the case, so to continue with pushing that point it's clear that prejudice has come into play.
Like with your hero Trump, he'll have an absolute meltdown on Twitter if a foreigner goes on a killing spree and then goes awfully quiet apart from the odd thought and prayer when it's a white supremacist doing the same thing. *puts on whiny voice* "Oh but we need to get our own house in order before we start accepting other problems er ner ner", I know all your responses before you make them so like I say I don't even see the point of continuing with this. You moan about me throwing prejudice into the mix when literally all of your arguments are riddled with it. You've even admitted to me that you are. Yet you go to great lengths to try and prove it's not about that when it always is.
You've had a problem with SOME Muslims in the past and therefore you have an inherent suspicion of ALL of them. That's your default position, it's what drives these arguments and that's prejudice. Admit it, own it, get on with your life and stop trying to argue the case that something else is driving these conversations cos I don't want to hear it any more.
So you admit the Australians would be easier, and as the head of this particular country you would have a duty to your own citizens and if you had limited resources already and couldnt afford translators and extra education you'd have to pick the easiest...so really you just made them #1....interesting. And that should be fine. Hard conversations need to be had even if the answer isn't what you would want.
ReplyDeleteFine. You've ended the conversation basically saying I'm racist. Fine again. This is what is happening to average Joe all over the west, and you wonder why when someone actually DOES listen to us that we support them. As I said at the start, there needs to be a middle ground where we can all work together to find the answers without all this.....you don't agree. Just sit there winding average people up while your fellow radical leftists slap you on the back. Take care Ian! \m/
I mean it's a nice try with trying to twist the Australian/Syrian thing but if I could just suggest switching the Syrian interpreters with either deaf people and sign language interpreters or disabled people and provision for disabled access and you can see that doesn't really look good. Especially given your second paragraph.
DeleteI didn't use the word "racist" because I know you'll bring out the "Islam isn't a race" thing but it is the most convenient word to use. We've literally had hours and hours of talking, so it's not like it's a kneejerk reaction to one comment you've said when I know nothing about you. I know all of your arguments and they all come back to some degree to you being prejudiced against Muslims.
Lots of average Joes all over the West are also prejudiced against Muslims so you're not alone, that's just the reality of the situation. They might not always have been that way, and in many cases that won't be based on direct contact as with yourself, but if the Trumps and Farages of this world only talk about them in negative terms then people that put their trust in those kind of characters will also come to view them in such a way. For the average Joes that go along with that then they can't then be surprised if they're labelled as prejudiced/racist etc. If they were JUST airing concerns as you say then that would be apparent I'm sure, there would be no additional comments that could be interpreted as prejudice. But the loudest voices are the ones that come hand in hand with prejudice.
For some people "racist" can be a throwaway term that might not always be used for fully deserving cases. That's why I worded your situation differently, but it all comes back to being prejudiced against a group of people.
You see Islamic terrorists and gangs of Muslim rapists and automatically associate those kind of characteristics with people of that religion, all of them are now potentially dangerous and can't be trusted, despite the vast majority of them not being either of those things. Yet white Brits will mow down crowds in cars, assassinate an MP, and act alone in large numbers to prey on young girls on the internet and there's no guilt by association anywhere to be seen.
All of the people I listed above are people who have committed despicable acts, yet despite undoubtedly sharing that opinion with you I haven't tried to extend that any further to a wider group and have therefore never been accused of being racist. You have.....and you have. So there's no "winding average people up", as Roy Walker would say "say what you see".
The thing with swapping the Syrians for deaf people. Really? It's tough one but if you had the choice between people who needed expensive help of any sort and those that don't in your cash strapped country many could argue you would be letting your own citizens down by choosing the expensive one.
ReplyDeleteWell I feel you're taking things a little bit too black and white. I'm not saying that I distrust every Muslim, I'm just saying that care needs to be taken when there is a demographic change, especially when there have been problems so far. When you can't accept that caution may need to be taken then you're turning people to turn away from you and towards Trump who says he hears your concerns and maybe takes it a bit too far. I think that's the end of that matter as we just don't see eye to eye.
As for the "White British people do bad things and white people don't come under suspicion" line. It's a card played by radical leftists but it's a strange one. In a predominantly white British country the suspicion just isn't likely to turn in on itself is it? It's crazy to compare the two. What you could compare it to is a predominantly Asian area of Birmingham whose Mosque just got egged. If they saw a white person outside would it be that wrong of them to think "Eh up what's he up to?" Maybe it would be wrong but understandable to. White people in ethnic minority majority areas do get looked on in suspicion for sure. It is what it is.
Do you really not understand the point I'm making by referencing people with a disability? You wouldn't turn down a deaf person for a job interview that has the necessary skills because you don't want to pay for an interpreter, there's a little thing called the disability discrimination act. It seems your recognition of discrimination and how much you accept it is flawed generally speaking too.
DeleteThe "white people don't come under suspicion is a card played by radical leftists".....come on, you're just making yourself look silly. "The suspicion just isn't likely to turn in on itself"??????!!!!!! So we're ok with men who mow down Muslims outside mosques, shoot MPs and lure young girls off the internet to rape them are we? That's literally what you just said. We're not like that so we don't do that, but them Muslims, ooooooh dodgy sort, exactly the kind of thing they'd do. The point that us "radical leftists" are making is, to quote a previous album title by One Minute Silence - "Available in All Colours". Take any group you like and there are examples of anything you could care to name. To turn a blind eye to the ones most like you is ridiculous.
The question of why gangs of Muslim men seem to turn up raping women is a really valid question to ask and I'd like to think someone is doing something about it to find out why it happens, look into the underlying reasons and work with communities to stop it from happening again. Is there a particular fundamental reason or is it a few ringleaders who then use an element of peer pressure to get others involved in their sordid games. I'd be interested to know that to stop there being any more victims, OF COURSE I WOULD. I HAVE A CONCERN ABOUT WHY THAT'S HAPPENING AND I HAVEN'T TURNED TO UKIP OR TRUMP. I wonder what the difference is.
In terms of your mosque egging scenario, there's a whole difference between seeing someone acting suspiciously at a specific time when you're on guard and projecting that onto everyone from the same race. If an Asian is suspicious of all white people then they're as bad as you, that's not difficult to understand.
Honestly Rob, I don't want to see a reply to this, I want you to get the hell off my blog. If you reply I'll delete it without reading it, I've seen enough now. You said you're spending time away from Twitter because you don't want to see those extreme views that you don't see from the news generally speaking.....I seriously don't get that when you continue to have those yourself. You've actually got worse since leaving Twitter with your talk of "radical leftists". Which is possibly just an attempt to try and wind me up but it doesn't work, it just makes you sound like an idiot.
When I pointed out that you're not equating the actions of white British people and a group that you personally are prejudiced towards you said that makes me a "radical leftist". Well done. My views are so crazy and far from the norm that how on earth could I say that a girl being raped by a white man and by an Asian man are equivalent crimes. Bye Rob, if you do ever come back to Twitter I won't be following you back, so enjoy your little world of suspicion.
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ReplyDeleteHappy birthday Morgz!!!! We might not get on any more but I remembered. We are beyond old now.
ReplyDeleteCheers Flatulencetrain.
DeleteHappy birthday Ian!! Hope you're still having fun and that the PVA glue is still fixing your records! \m/
ReplyDeleteYou know if you still remember my birthday it probably means I'm living in your head rent-free.....thanks Bob \m/
DeleteHow could I forget man. Every time I see Miranda Hart, Richard Osman, or Piers Morgan you come to mind!!
ReplyDeleteI just watched a Netflix documentary called The Social Dilemma. I honestly recommend it if you have Netflix. Honestly you came to mind a LOT as someone who by their own admission got their news from Twitter and how you go off. If you ever watch it at least bear that in mind! \m/
ReplyDelete